Electronic Ignition Options

[Editor FPParticipant]

Having been let down recently by a deteriorating condenser in my Light 15,  I am considering an electronic ignition replacement.

There seem to be three options:

• A complete replacement electronic distributor such as the 123 setup.
• A more compact and cleaper system such as the Accuspark unit which tucks away inside the standard distributor in replacement of the points/condenser.
• A magic box type which retains the points, and deletes the condenser. This it is claimed makes future points replacement only necessary at extreme mileages, and gets rid of the potentially troublesome condenser. I have had  a Boyer Bransden system on an Austin 10 a few years ago. It worked fine, but did not seem to offer any great starting or running advantages.

I am inclined to one of the first two options, but I have read mixed reviews of the 123 setup, (although my 2Cv has one). Some seem to think that it is absolutely wonderful, others have had trouble, particularly with quality control items, such as the central electrode in the cap breaking, and have found the manufacturers difficult to deal with if problems are encountered.

What does everyone think? Has anyone had experience of fitting, setting up and running any of the above.

 

[Philippe AllisonParticipant]

Hi Bryan,

I have been using 123’s on both my cars. The Roadster since 2012 and 25,000 miles and the 6 since 2017 and 5,000 miles. So far very reliable and totally trouble free. When I purchased the unit for the Roadster I was aware of some adverse comments about the units failing. I discussed this with one of the UK importers and he said they are susceptible to incorrect polarity when they are fitted initially and the early units could sometimes be damaged by starting with jump leads. He assured me the latter problem had been solved electronicaly with a circuit protector.

Both my cars are set up with timing marks so I can time with a timing strobe, it is evident when doing this how good and stable the distributor is. In short very pleased and would recomend and buy again.

p.s.

Comments on the other two sytems, if you retain points their adjustment affects the dwell angle and both systems rely on the distributor being in good mechanical shape.

I have the 123 bluetooth model on the 6, this can have bespoke  advance curves programmed in and can be disabled with an app on the phone as a security device.

Give me a call if you would like to discuss further.

regards Philippe

[Editor FPParticipant]

Thanks for that. I’d be interested to see how you have set up your timing marks. I have found an article online which describes setting something up, so that  a strobe can be used on the pulley and there is another piece on the COCCA website showing timing marks on the bottom of the flywheel, making timing a two man job! (although they do suggest a mirror on a stick). I wonder how many set their timing to 8 degrees static and don’t bother with the extra tweak?

http://citroen.cappyfabrics.com/principal.html  shows how someone (in the States I think) has used the pulley.

He is actually doing it on a D series engine, but the principle appears to be applicable to an ID/Perfo

If it works would also make a good item for FP.

Thanks again

Bryan

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Editor FP.

[Peter FeredayParticipant]

Hi Bryan

You may want to look at my FP Southern Scotland reports for Jan/Feb and March/April 18 where I detail issues I had with my 123 ignition.  The new circuit board fitted then is still working fine – may be tempting fate…..Overall I think it is an excellent system and the car runs much more smoothly than before, even better now with the overhauled carb.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[David FaulknerParticipant]

For me, a ‘Powernition’ electronic dizzy that came with the car  failed and was irreparable and I ended up on a tow truck 🙁

The 123 that replaced it worked OK but had no vacuum advance so had ‘issues’ at times under some conditions. (The one I had on my 74 D Super wasn’t great either)

A brand new copy Ducellier mechanical dizzy for 65 euro from Renel transformed the car as with no wear on the shafts it keeps the timing correct once set.

I have considered fitting an Accu Spark unit in it and keeping the points and condenser so if it failed I can simply switch back, however a new quality Valeo condenser is only 3.33 euro from the likes of Autodoc https://tinyurl.com/y96r9652

A spare set of points, rotor arm, condenser and dizzy cap cost under £25 in total (less than the Accu Spark one) and that’s now what I have in the boot of the car ‘just in case’

Playing devils advocate here; I think that the majority of those who have fitted 123 units were replacing old, worn and tired mechanical ones, so the comparison was not a true reflection of the pros and cons of each (this has no reflection on the previous comments from Phil and Peter btw).

Oh and having the ability to manually retard the ignition from the dashboard means I could try the starter handle if the starter motor failed again (like it did in France 🙁 )

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by David Faulkner. Reason: Added more detail
• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by David Faulkner. Reason: Typo fix

[Peter FeredayParticipant]

Fair comment David, the 123 did replace a worn and tired distributor with loads of play on the drive key. A very good  mechanical SEV dizzy now lives in the boot permanently, just in case the 123 lets go again. This has been tried in the car and was also so much better than the old one.

My 123 has vacuum advance though, I think you can get it with or without

[Editor FPParticipant]

Hi all

Thanks for the comments. I haven’t replied sooner because of the FP deadline.

You can get the 123 with or without vacuum advance. I will probably persevere with points for the moment and see how things go. A reconditioned /new distributor may be a better solution, certainly better value for money.

I may also try a new coil. If mine is still the original from whenever the car was converted to negative earth, then it may well not be doing its best in terms of efficiency.

Philippe, how did you set up your timing marks?

[Paul BarnardParticipant]

Hi Bryan

A little late to the party I see. I am one of those who did not have a good time with 123. I fitted one to my Volvo Amazon and for 6 months it was perfect but then I started to experience some problems  The car would tick over perfectly but on acceleration lacked power and appeared to have a timing problem with missing and backfiring which I finally attributed to a failing coil (or so I thought, not believing that a relatively new 123 unit could possibly be at fault) – I replaced this with no improvement and then proceeded to replace virtually everything without solving the issue. In frustration, I removed the 123 unit and replaced it with a second hand Lumenition set up that I had in the workshop. The change was all but miraculous and I have had no problems at all since. I had great difficulty with customer service at 123 and basically gave up with them. I still have the unit and I’m toying with trying it on another Amazon I have just to see whether I can make it work.

Just thought I would give you a negative to balance all the positives.

Paul

[Editor FPParticipant]

Thanks for this Paul.

I think that on balance I will give the 123 a miss for the moment. It is an expensive solution and I have heard a number of horror stories about dealings with the manufacturer, who, it seems will never admit the possibility of his product ever developing a fault, can be quite hostile and appears to have no concern about his wider reputation within what is a close knit car community.

I do have a 123 in my 2CV, but also carry the points box around and if the 123 proved unreliable would unhesitatingly return to traditional ignition. If I did go electronic, it would probably be via the Accuspark module type route, but I will give the current setup another chance and consider a refurbished standard dizzy.

Bryan

[Philippe AllisonParticipant]

Sorry about the photo quality. If you look carefully you will see a metal pointer close the the edge of the cam shaft pulley. There is a small saw cut on the edge of the pulley that marks TDC. Not sure if you could doe this without the engine partially stripped as you need to establish TDC exactly. Then you just need a graduated timming light and the calculation mentioned previously as the cam shaft runs at half engine speed.

All the best Philippe.

[BernieParticipant]

Chaps,

I had devised a similar system on the Légère but, having set the ignition up to my satisfaction, I chose to mark the actual point of ignition.

It was fine at first but, over time, as the timing chain wore/stretched and wear in the Oldham joint increased (despite regular greasing), it became noticeably less accurate.  I would suspect that to be less of a problem on an 11D engine with a splined pulley drive but the timing chain would still be a factor.

That said, I can envisage no other practical way of visually monitoring the timing except possibly by cutting a hole in the bell housing to see the flywheel – but I would certainly not endorse that.

B….

[Tony BuxtonParticipant]

Hi,

Does anyone know where to buy spring clip locking rings as used in B2 gearboxes? I’ve tried bending returns on ordinary snap rings, but I need some larger diameter clips for the locking rings on my Kegresse track mechanism. The gearbox clips are generally 40mm diameter, but I need 50, 60, and 90mm clips in 2.5mm round spring wire. I can buy the wire OK, but forming and tempering is hit and miss.

Thanks, Tony  (top right is a 90mm clip with 10mm return to radius. The bottom pics are bearing locking rings around which the smaller clips sit.)

[Martin de LittleParticipant]

HI Bryan et al….

I shall say simply that the 123 system has always worked for me. I had one on my MGB for very many years (at least 20 or so years) and 11 years on our Normale.  Always works never  ever any  trouble whatsoever.   On occasions i have helped folk with their 123  ignition. the claimed fault s have been:  difficult starting, iffy idling and even a propensity for the engine to judder under load (with the clutch being blamed).  In each and every case the problem was resolved by using copper cored HT leads and plug caps with the standard 5K resistor within.

Carbon cored plug leads eventually break down and the  HT voltage declines accordingly. Unless the decline of the cables is really serious (in which case you will see  blue flashes within the cables with the engine running on a dark night)  my very best advice to all Traction owners would be – dump the carbon cored cables  as soon as you can and install copper cored HT leads  including – of course- the feed from coil to distributor cap.

 

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