November/December

[Anonymous]

Just got my copy of Floating Power and started to read through. Just thought I would start a thread to discuss the open questions from the President and the Chairman about AGM and making the Traction attractive to those youngsters under 50 😉

Firstly on the matter of the AGM and getting more people to attend. Would it be a good idea next year to move the date of the AGM up against or just after the NEC show. If I had two things to travel for then it would be more attractive to me, to be able to meet other club members plus help out on the stand and look around (of course not buying) the show. So have the AGM before or even during the show weekend. This also might encourage more helpers on the stand, specially if it provided discounted tickets and enough spare time to take a wander around. Maybe 1 day or 2 day stints and not the whole thing. It would gel the members together a little more and have more of an opportunity to plan the stand.

So onto getting more people introduced to Tractions, now that is a little harder mainly due to the nostalgia argument mentioned by the Chairman but then again I only ever associated the Traction with war movies and gangster films (hence mine is called “Vinny” the gangster) as I grew up in Australia and saw my first “natural” Traction when I came to France 11 years ago. But I have written about this subject before trying to water down the firm belief’s of the hardened purists that demand cars to be 100% original and black. It is nice to see a long line of identical cars but if purchasing a car itself does not allow any individual input from the prospective owner then they may as well be museum pieces. So having that freedom to modify, customise, jazz up a Citroen Traction without being shunned by an owners club would be a start (think of the VW scene, 2CVs and even Renaults). I would also add that coming in at the very low, bottom feeder end of the Traction market i.e. scraping mine out of a barn for free, I do see an overwhelming prejudice towards the very high end of the market, i.e cabriolets etc. I know they are very nice but for the average “Bod” they are way out of their price range, and lets be honest, if you have that kind of budget then there is a hell of a lot of other cars out there that do not need their oil changed every 1000km or burns your hand when you pull on the handbrake.

Another area which I am looking into at the moment to get more use out of my Traction (even more than going to the shops each week) is to start Historic motor rallying. The regularity rallies look a lot of fun and the Traction is a great car for these. Even a fun Treasure Hunt type of event would give purpose to driving your Traction. But I see, time and time again that most Traction events seem to be meeting up in a carpark, driving to a museum, a church, a country house and having a wander round for an hour killing time before the meal and then drive home. The big reason I like classic cars is so I don’t have to go to a museum, a church or a bloody country house – I like my garage, I like talking about the technical stuff and I like driving my car but if the clubs do not offer fun motoring events then I may as well just drive it the shops even more. (this is exactly the same with the TU here in France too).

So more to follow once I have passed page 5………

[Anonymous]

For me, I would ditch the November NEC show as there is to much modern stuff and do either the September Manchester Classic show or probably more relevant the March? Classic Restoration Show at the NEC as most members are either restoring a car completely or doing ongoing repairs/maintenance…….

[Anonymous]

I’ve never had a problem with modifying Tractions. In fact at Arras, a 100% original car that had never had any mods was actually rather boring in a way. Good to see several that are 100% but lets face it, these cars have lived lives and had different owners who all thought to change their cars in ways that suited them better. Original accessories, gauges, wind wings, different wheels, sun roofs, fog lights, vintage radios and so forth.
I had a hand in building the electric Traction Familiale at Gillards’s last year. Done for a customer, he wanted it, he paid for it, he got it. 48 batteries and a complex control system. Batteries under the bonnet and also where the petrol tank used to be. The charging system was in the spare tyre well and the plug-in for it was in the old tank filler neck which I thought was a nice touch. Still had the original gear shift but it only has second and reverse gear as it’s only to be used in London. The motor was about 35 HP as I recall but it can be recalibrated as I understand. I didn’t see the final product but the car was totally rebuilt, silver with a red leather interior. It looked great and with the bonnet closed, you couldn’t tell the difference. It sure wasn’t done on the cheap. Went like a rocket, too.

[Anonymous]

Now that would be a fantastic feature in Floating Power and I bet would spread very quickly….

[Anonymous]

I too would love to see a article on the electric traction. I agree with Ian on the need for different types of event. I must add though I am a new member and not done any of the events yet! I thank all those who put in the hard work for the club and without them it would not be as good as it is.
Attracting younger members will always be a challenge, my original aim was to get our traction when I retired. My stroke in June changed all that as I was told I would not see the next day and after making a stunning recovery I thought never put off something you want. I would love to know the average age of the membership.

[Anonymous]

I am humbled…… 😆 😆

[attachment=0:1xhmd31t]Toc Forum.jpeg[/attachment:1xhmd31t]

[Anonymous]

Going back to Tripyrenees first points, in terms of getting more and younger people interested, there are a lot of problems with getting people into most older classics, not least of which is that of cost. As a trend, the classic car movement now definitely seems to be drifting more into cars of the seventies and eighties. I saw this at the NEC the other day and also noted when we were manning the club stand in Manchester in September, that the number of pre and immediately post war cars on show is undoubtedly dwindling. I am sure that the root causes are cost,and perceived (economic) availability of spares and that a lot of expensively restored older cars are spending less and less regular time on the road. It is a shame that they are disappearing in terms of their show presence, but we should at least be thankful ( and not that surprised) that they are being replaced by the Capris and Cortinas of our(my) youth, and that the Classic Car world is still moving forwards, even if the emphasis on what constitutes a Classic is changing.
I think that it is inevitable that many Classic owners will be older. It would be interesting to know what the current age profiles of club members is, but I am willing to guess that many of us are at least in our early sixties, and that is as much as anything to do with the fact that it is, for most of us, only our later years that provide sufficient spare time and money to indulge such an interest. A longer term problem with this, in my view, is now going to be that of the current trend with regard to occupational pensions of one kind or another. Even decent public sector deals are starting to get rather scarce and I fear that inevitably there will be much less money about amongst the retired classes, who historically have been those with the time and money to run and restore classics. This is coupled with a definite fall off in the number of individuals who have themselves maintained an old technology car ‘hands on’ and hence have the experience to do their own repairs and maintenance.

[Anonymous]

Hi All.

A couple of responses to ‘matters’ posted here. Re the electric Traction, I had a call from John Gillard today, who is talking about giving me an article on the tech details of the electric Traction. Knowing John, I can’t believe he saw this thread here (he doesn’t believe in computers), so it must be pure chance that he had the same idea. I’ll put it in FP when I get it.

Regarding the average age of members, funnily enough I was talking to John Oates at the NEC last Friday and he commented that it would be interesting to know the same thing. We all assume that all members are about a hundred years old, but maybe that’s because the members who turn up for gatherings are all ‘greybeards’. John felt that trying to find out members’ ages would create a stink, but I wonder…. Perhaps a questionnaire on the back of the cover sheet that goes out with FP? We could also ask things like “Are you male, female or trans”…. that might produce a few letters to the Editor 😆

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,

Ed.

[Anonymous]

…….

[Anonymous]

@TOC Editor wrote:

Hi All.

A couple of responses to ‘matters’ posted here. Re the electric Traction, I had a call from John Gillard today, who is talking about giving me an article on the tech details of the electric Traction. Knowing John, I can’t believe he saw this thread here (he doesn’t believe in computers), so it must be pure chance that he had the same idea. I’ll put it in FP when I get it.

Regarding the average age of members, funnily enough I was talking to John Oates at the NEC last Friday and he commented that it would be interesting to know the same thing. We all assume that all members are about a hundred years old, but maybe that’s because the members who turn up for gatherings are all ‘greybeards’. John felt that trying to find out members’ ages would create a stink, but I wonder…. Perhaps a questionnaire on the back of the cover sheet that goes out with FP? We could also ask things like “Are you male, female or trans”…. that might produce a few letters to the Editor 😆

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,

Ed.

It would be interesting to have some insight into club age groups. It might be informative for the club as well. Not sure about the rest of your suggestion…….

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, unlike some “forum engines” phpbb doesn’t support surveys that forum members can respond to.

[Anonymous]

The club having a healthy bank balance is a major asset for all members. Should the need arise to fund production of new parts or in the future need a home for the spares the money is there to do things.
The point about wealthy pensioners is so true, pensioners now will go down in history as the most affluent ever. That is a sad and worry fact but sadly true.
I am probably going to get shot over my next comments but here goes. I went to the NEC and to be honest I was not impressed with the stand. Stuck at the back of a larger general Citroen stand. Very drab with no one thing to pull the people in. Cars were good but nowhere near enough information on the placards for each car, a mirror on the floor to show the underneath would have made a point of showing how advanced the car was for it’s time. Where were all the big posters of club activities over the last year? Where was the poster announcing it is the 40th birthday of the club next year? Why was there no mention of the fantastic spares club? People now like to join a club and have a social life thrown in, especially the other halves who through patience and money shared have a vested interest in the car.
I visited the stand twice, once in the morning and introduced myself and the wife to a couple of people. Great reaction and lots of chat about our car and of those on the stand. My wife was made to feel welcome and was chatting away for ages. Our second visit was I admit late in the day and people may well of been tired but we were virtually ignored and it seemed we were interrupting a private party. Harsh words and I am sorry if I offend anyone since they took the time to attend for the club but without honest feedback we never learn.
The club needs to attract younger people and increase membership or it will die. We are all getting older and as I know from my near fatal stroke in June we are all here on a limited ticket. We need to show a person with a family that the car is viable to use for a family, that spares are readily available etc.
I apologise in advance if I have offended anyone, that was not my intention and I will put my money where my mouth is and will volunteer to help at the next show.

[Anonymous]

A survey would be good – I was searching for the Practical Classics magazine survey they did. It was very interesting with regards to age and classic car ownership.

You are probably all correct with regards to pension and to spare time. I am lucky enough only to work 6 months of the year so have plenty of time to do my cars and tap away on this forum 😉 . But on the down side, I am going to have a really crap pension 😕

I also agree on the hands on work on “real” engines – I have been lucky (with zero persuasion) that my son bought an austin mini when he was 16 and totally rebuilt the engine, learning as he went. He learnt even faster when he did not realise it needed the oil checked from time to time which led to a 2nd engine rebuild with a new block. But 5 years on and he is onto his second mini (now with my help and tools that I had to buy for the Traction) changing suspension, brakes, exhaust systems without a bother. The car specific forums are crucial to this [hence this Forum will be the No1 method of attracting new members in the future]. He joined a local club here in toulouse and the age of those guys is not “youthful” and they help with all the technical issues, have deals with local garages and have a run around toulouse once a month with a café stop for a social. He loves it and has made a lot of contacts (which is helping me with my little ’69 Mini project at the moment)

The technical side does need to be at the forefront of the club including the spares and support. With out this then the classic will die out. The social side comes along with that but the emphasis should be on the driving and not just the drinking 😯 .

I do find that with older cars at shows (like the Traction), that they are put behind a string fence, are all shiny and black with the bonnet shut and stood next to them is a disgusting old mannequin dressed in an old oxfam dress (exactly what we have with Traction Universelle here) It is enough to scare any prospective member off 😆 😆

As I mentioned above, if the AGM and the show stand are butted up to each other then I am very happy to help out between the end of September and the end of April…. but the last time I wore a suit was my last day in the office 12 years ago and it will be 5 sizes too large now 😆 😆

More comments good or “constructive” should be welcome with out demonising anyone….Baz 👿 👿 👿 😆 😆 😆

[Anonymous]

Hi All.

In no particular order (and I’m sure I will forget some of the comments I meant to pick up on), here are some ‘observations’….. I think Baz is perfectly within his rights to comment on the lack of attention he received on his second visit to the NEC stand. One of the things the club ‘management’ is trying to do is to get honest comments from members. I get the feeling, while chatting over a pint, that sometimes there is an air of “I’ll get this off my chest now, while we’re at the bar, but there’s no point grumbling to the club as nothing will happen”. I’m convinced that’s not true. At this year’s AGM Cleve effectively said “Tell us your thoughts, good and bad” and that meant the meeting lasted about one hour forty minutes. There’s little point in having ‘open meetings’ if no one is going to say a dicky bird. When the Club Spares thing was going on, one member told me a long story over a pint (or two..) about ordering a part from club spares and it didn’t fit (of course the blow-by-blow account took a lot longer to tell than that). I waited for him to run out of steam and then asked whether he’d told anyone ‘in authority’ about this, as the club was trying to find out what was true and what was ‘legend’ regarding problems with spares. His reply? “Well, you know me Bob, I don’t like to make a fuss”. Well, that was bloody helpful then!

I agree with Baz (having spent time on the NEC stand over the past few years), that sometimes it reminds me of a private club and I do get ‘twitchy’ when I see stand ‘staff’ deep in conversation with each other. One of my many incarnations as a youth was as assistant bar manager in a disreputable drinking club (they’ve all gone out of business now we have 24 hour licensing 😀 ) The first thing I was told was ‘keep your eyes open even when you’re re-stacking the shelf. The job is to serve people, even if you’re in the middle of something else’. So, I can chat to other members while on the NEC stand while keeping my eye out for visitors who may want a bit of information. Unfortunately, I agree with Baz, that many well-meaning members who man (and ‘woman’) the stand don’t seem to have this skill and it ‘does my head in’ to watch visitors giving the so-called buying signal, and our lot are all nattering amongst themselves.

On that subject, I thought the NEC on Friday (the day I did stand duty) was very good for visitors. I personally gave out two or three membership leaflets and someone else told me he’d given out four or five. The problem we have is that we have no way of tracking whether people join later as a result of the NEC, other than the anecdotal evidence. John Oates tells me there is no logic to how the membership applications come in. I think he said he suddenly had five in a week, but there was no tie-in with anything that he was aware of.

Regarding the two topics of how much money the club has in reserve and the quality of the NEC stand, this is quite interesting. The NEC costs the club a fair amount of money each year. As far as I know, the stand is ‘free’ but the materials we put on the stand cost money and, where vehicles have to be trailered to the NEC, the club pays for trailer hire. The club also has to fund ‘the organiser’ staying in a hotel for three or four nights. There are two different trains of thought in conflict here. Those who say the club holds too much money in reserve will be happy that the club uses some of that money to cover costs like the NEC, while those who question the value of the NEC stand will point to the cost of the stand as one reason why we should stop doing it every year. The balancing act that ‘the management’ have to achieve is to have a reasonable stand background, while not spending a fortune making a new backdrop every year. I noted that this year’s backdrop was cobbled together from the materials we used last year. So, I guess this is an unwinnable discussion.

I’ve done the NEC for five years now and my own observation is that it’s the cars that draw people onto the stand. If you watch people wandering around, you see them suddenly spot the cars and then come straight over for a closer look. The big draw this year was Martin de Little’s rear wheel drive Citroen. I saw more people go straight to this than all the Tractions. But the Tractions drew in a lot of people too. So, it’s not clear to me that the ‘quality’ of our stand makes a lot of difference (which is not the same as saying we shouldn’t try to make the stand look good).

Finally, as other people have said here, if anyone’s unhappy with the stand then the answer is to try to get more involved next year. But, at the end of the day, I think any criticism is very useful, so please keep giving your opinions. I’ll certainly print any relevant letters in FP.

Ed.

[Anonymous]

I sent an email early this year offering my 1949 RHD Paris built Legere for the NEC stand.

I did not even get an acknowledgement saying “thank you we shall bear it in mind”.

I think that says a lot.

[Author]

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